Yet Another Bible Code Bozo

Apr 24 2009 Published by under Numerology

I'm trying to get back into my routine, after being really devastated by losing my
dog. To people who don't love dogs, it probably seems silly to be so upset over an animal, but
he was really a member of the family, and losing him really knocked me for a loop.

I'm trying to first get caught up on my book schedule, so I haven't had time for any
substantial blog posts. But while I was bumming around, a comment showed up on one of my old
posts. For background, several times in the past, I've written about the Lords Witnesses, a
Jehovah's Witness spinoff group that claims to have discovered a "bible code" by which prophecies
are embedded in the bible. They've been predicting that Manhattan will be hit by an atomic bomb.
They've proposed somewhere around 20 different dates. Their latest prediction was April 4th of
this year.

My last post about the Lord's Witnesses and their goofy prophesies was back in 2006. But this week, a new comment on that post showed up.

It's an amusing comment. The gist of it is that he has discovered the
one true bible code; that everyone else who's found bible codes is really just being
duped by Satan, and that anyone who doesn't accept the truth of his one true
bible code is an agent of Satan.

The whole bible code phenomenon frankly fascinates me. We human beings - and in my opinion,
any intelligent beings capable of natural thought - are inevitably natural pattern-seekers. It's
just the nature of intelligence: we try to understand the world, and understanding comes from
recognizing patterns, and using those patterns to create models of how things work. The
bible codes are, to me, a really fascinating meta-example of this: people search for all sorts
of bizarre and obscure structures that produce patterns in their holy texts; and then people like
me look at all of the people who do that, and see patterns of similarity in how they
obsessively find patterns.

But anyway, back to the code.
It's not really particularly different from any of the other rubbish out there. But it's very
amusing, both because of the way it makes the same old mistakes, and by the sheer hubris of the
guy behind it.

His code is basically a combination of skip codes and gematria.

For those unfamiliar, skip codes are a method where you select a text, select a starting
point, and then pick every Nth letter. The resulting letters are strung together, and you select
the word boundaries. The "codes" discovered by this are basically words that can be formed from
consecutive letters in a skip sequence.

Gematria is an old Jewish thing, which originally came from the fact that in Hebrew, you use
the same characters for writing letters and numbers - which means that every word can be
interpreted as a number, and many numbers can be interpreted as words. So Jewish mystics,
primarily in Eastern Europe, became fascinated with studying the Torah by looking for ways of finding information based on converting back and forth between letters and numbers.

In more modern times, tons of crackpots have latched on to gematria. Only instead of learning
hebrew, they just create numerical mappings for english letters, and then do it in english. It
doesn't work nearly as well, but given enough input data, almost any process can create some
amount of seemingly interesting output. (Hebrew works better than english for gematria because
vowels aren't written, so you only have consonants; almost all words have three-consonant roots;
most three-consonant combinations are a word-root; and most conjugations are done by either
modifying the (unwritten) vowels, or by adding suffixes to words. So, for example, the word
"boy" in hebrew is YeLeD; the word girl is YaLDa.)

Anyway... Our crackpot friend is using skip-codes plus gematria on the King James translation of the bible. What makes him interesting is that he believe that he is a prophet, and that
there are codes in the bible to verify that fact. In fact, pretty much all of his
supposed bible-code work is really just trying to prove that he is a prophet.

In terms of math, it's really just same-old, same-old. As I said at the beginning, humans
are very good at finding patterns. If we're sufficiently determined to put in the time
and try enough combinations, we can find patterns in anything. Take something
substantial like the complete new testament, and you've got something in the vicinity
of 4 million characters - and that's plenty of room for searching. You can
find pretty much anything you want.

To be a bit more specific about his stuff... He uses a piece of software that allows you to do
searches through the bible with various skip distances - both positive and negative. He then picks
questions, and selects arbitrary words from the questions, and does searches. Then he takes the
number of hits for his selected words, and adds them up - and looks for correspondences with the
numbers corresponding to his particular target words. His targets are, for the most part, pretty
typical: "God", "Jesus", "Messiah". But also "Prophet Sean", "Sean Proudler", "K. Sean
Proudler".

What are some of his results? He wants to search for the answer "What is the mark of christ?".
He pulls out first the word "mark" - that's going to be what he searches for. Then he takes the
word "christ", and uses it to set the skip distances to search, using its numerical
value of 462. But since he needs a range of search distances, he arbitrarily decides to add 1000 to it, and searches for references to "mark", using skip distances ranging from 462 to 1462. Why those numbers? Why 1462 instead of 2462, or
10462? Because 1462 is the one that works. Using that, the number of matches for "mark" is 462.

Another one, he asks "What is the mark of jesus christ, jesus?".
He sets the skip range from -906 (the english gematria for "jesus christ") to +888 (the greek gematria code for "Jesus"), and searches for the word "mark", and comes up with 906 hits.

He plays with all sorts of similarly stupid stuff. Because of the way that he uses both wrapping, and ranges of skip codes, he's gotten even sillier than the usual bible code stuff. If you can pick any range of skip distances, and any search string, you can come up
with pretty much any answer you want.

Where he gets really fun, though, is when he starts trying to prove his own prophet-hood. He
starts off by asserting "Scientists say that jesus was born on June 17th in the year 2BC." I'd never heard that one before. Doing a Google search, one guy claims that studying astronomical records, they've identified the "Christmas star", and it would have been visible around
June 17th, 2BC. Ok, so he didn't totally make this up. But then he decides
that he wants to check if that's true. He searches for "born on" - the phrase;
"six one" - again, the phrase, not the individual words; "seven", and "ii bc". He uses skip distances ranging from 1 to 522 (the gematria of "truth"). The result
is that "born on" occurs 9 times, "six one" occurs once; "seven" occurs 387 times, and "ii bc" occurs 491 times. Those add up to 888 - which is the greek gematria for "jesus". From
this and a similar exercise (using skip ranges from 1 to 1617 - why? because "6/17" is
June 17th, and it just works if you add the one prefix), he concludes that yes indeed,
jesus was born on June 17th.

I'll bet you can't guess our loony friend's birthday, can you? Why it's June 17th!

So he's supposedly born on the same day as Jesus. What more could proof could you possibly ask
for that he's a prophet?

How about this. If you take his first initial, K, in his gematria system, it's got the numeric
value "66". Now, if you do a search of the King James bible, using skip distances from 1 to 66,
and you search for the word "mark", you'll get 156 - the gematria for "god". If you search for
"born", you'll get 906 hits, the gematria for "jesus christ". And if you search for "return",
you'll get 444 hits - the english gematria for jesus.

But that's not all. If you ignore his first name, and use "Sean Proudler", the gematria for
his name in english is the same as the gematria for "jesus" in greek.

Not enough? If you search for "Jesus's", "Sean's", "blood", and "line", using skips from 1 to
522 (the gematria value of "truth", the sum of the number of hits is 8882. And "888" is the
gematria code for both "jesus" (in greek) and "Sean Proudler" (in english), and since there are
two of them, it ends in 2!

Wow! What are the odds?

Roughly 100%. If you can play any numeric games you want, and interpret the results
any way you want, you can get any results you want. If I were willing to actually pay
for a copy of the software he used, I'll guarantee that I could find something to support
the argument that "John Lennon is god".

But I'm probably just saying that because I'm an agent of Satan.

No responses yet

  • Ouch! Are you sure this is a spin-off of Jehovah's Witnesses? Though we may be thought of as odd, we don't go anywhere near this type of formulistic stuff. Our explanation of 666, for example, is the epitome of common sense and restraint compared to what's out there. You should have heard the fundamentalists carry on about Ronald Wilson Reagan, for example. (3 names, 6 letters each) Of course, when one starts to get carried away with their own personal relationship with God, which is superior to yours or anyone else's, there's no telling what can happen.
    And I don't think it's silly to be devastated over the loss of an animal companion. In some respects, they make better friends than people.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #1:
    *This* guy has nothing to do with the JWs. He's a lone crackpot.
    But the Lords Witnesses are a JW spinoff. They were, apparently, founded by a guy who got thrown out of the JWs for his bible-code prophesy nonsense.

  • James F says:

    This "code" will at least bring a smile to your face.

  • DannyHaszard says:

    The Guy most likely WAS a Jehovah's Witness and the Watchtower Society has made endless end of the world predictions.
    This whole JW apocalyptic mindset messes up a lot of followers and the Watchtower shares the blame for all the 'crackpots' that they spawned.
    That's a fact!

  • Uncle Al says:

    1) I keep an illustrated Book of Mormon (free!) in the front door bookcase. Vampires cannot tolerate garlic, Jehova's Witensses (especially the one in back) are uncreated by the Book of Mormon. Note the plasma stardrive blasting from Christ's fundament, color plate facing page 397. Ouch.
    2) The Torah is a mess. Original Hebrew was barely large enough to describe incest. Some 5% of the words are only use once and have no traceable meaning ("prophet" is as likely "musician". Jam sessions rather than holy rollering read as well in context.) Scribes shifted spacings horizontally and vertically to add sub rosa graffiti. There is an awful lot of crap hanging from under consonents in addition to Ashkenazi-created vowels (disdained by Sephardics, who also drop S-T and aw-ah distinctions).
    3) As with the god-given calendar that has entire leap months, the number system is irregular given forbidden spellings. There comes to mind the joke about the retired comics home and Ernie shouting "#17!" ("He never could tell a joke.")
    4) The world ended 0000 hrs 01 January 1900. The paperwork is still tied in knots.
    5) Sell your soul to the Devil and all the pressure is off.

  • Wouter Lievens says:

    What makes it even worse is that he's doing all this on an ENGLISH translation written more than fifteen hundred years after the original work. It wasn't written by any "prophets".

  • GOTCHA says:

    Show us your statistical analysis. We cannot wait to see it.
    Otherwise, continue onward....., mock yourself out, waaaay out.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #7:
    I'll do you one better than just my own analysis: here's a stastistical analysis by a professional statistician. It doesn't focus on your specific method, but instead on the original skip-codes work on the hebrew old testament. But that method is *far* more restrictive than yours. Your method provides several additional degrees of freedom, which only increase the chance that you'll find spurious patterns.
    Here's the link:
    http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/StatSci/

  • jjsocrates says:

    In a world where people see images of Jesus and The Holy Virgin in a piece of burnt toast or a potato chip, is it really worth the time to try to give every crackpot a lesson in statistics? Even those that think God put secret codes knowing full well that they could only be decoded once the Bible was eventually translated into English for his prophets to discover.

  • Mu says:

    Wouter, there's a whole batch of loons out there for whom not the Hebrew bible but the King James version is the itinerant word of god, written by his divine guidance. The old FSTDS was full of rather amusing quotes from that peculiar corner, especially funny when they argued Hebrew expressions were taken from the English language, which didn't exist at the time the bible was written.

  • Paul Murray says:

    "prophet" is as likely "musician". Jam sessions rather than holy rollering read as well in context.

    I rather like Andrew White's take on it: ancient societies regarded any sort of artistic talent as a divine manifestation. So the prophets were simply people able to - for instance - construct verse, or make music. That's why so much of Isaiah is poetry: it being poetic is kind of the whole point.
    Similarly, the bible mentions that Solomon was so wise that he constructed X proverbs. Geddit? Being able to construct a catchy little rhyme is exactly what wisom *is*, as far as those anients were concerned. God's omniscience is precisely that you can pose any sort of riddle or verbal puzzle to him (like those "lateral thinking:" puzzles), and he'll always come back with a good answer.

  • GOTCHA says:

    Yeah yeah yeah, I spoke to professor Dror Bar-Natan. He lives in my home town.
    But he too followed the rule, " Reject before Inspect ". He gave up before he even started.
    Thank goodness Thomas Edison and his crew did not think along these lines. After a lot of searching, they found the truth concerning the materials needed to create that special light bulb that unlike the 100's of others, had a long long life. In other words the truth was not screaming out load " Here I am, I'm that light bulb.", but he found the truth anyhow. The truth was basically the last on a very long list.
    People are so pathetic these days that they even reject that which sits as second on the list.

  • Brent says:

    Wonderful article; a good refutation of the alleged "Bible Code" nonsense is here (note the clown "K. Sean Proudler" has even posted comments there)
    Link: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4048
    The Bible Code: Enigmas for Dummies
    Skeptoid #48
    June 5, 2007

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #12:
    They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at Edison. And they also laughed at bozo the clown.
    I take it that your playing the infamous Galileo gambit means that you can't address any of the statistical problems with the code proving your prophethood?

  • GOTCHA says:

    So I take it that you laughed at Bozo, thus explaining why you would have also laughed at Galileo, Einstein, Edison and alike, as well.
    When I was a youngster I said that the variable motion that mankind claimed to see, was nonexistent due to it being absolutely impossible. Everyone laughed at me, including my science teacher. I then explained what was going on but still that could not override their stupidity via hopefully waking up their minds.
    Now here is the funny part. I then created a geometric representation of what I understood and used this to make an easy conversion of these understandings into equations.
    The equations turned out to be identical to those known today as the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction equation, the Time Dilation equation, the Lorentz Transformation equations, and the Velocity Addition equation, and all this was achieved prior to having completed grade 10, nor even having picked up a physics text book.
    But still they said that every word that came out of my mouth was nonsense, even though I had revealed the very substructure of Einstein's theory of Special Relativity, which is what makes relativity come about to begin with.
    I said what mankind sees as variable motion was absolutely impossible, but actually was a relativistic phenomenon.
    But still, even though I had pointed out the relativistic structure of motion, and also this concept of mine created identical equations known today as the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction equation, the Time Dilation equation, the Lorentz Transformation equations, and the Velocity Addition equation, again they said it was all nonsense.
    That was when I began to look for a bigger picture since I was also intelligent enough to realize that no one under normal circumstance could that bloody stupid.
    I was right, this practice of sheer stupidity was not of their own choosing.

  • Parse says:

    RE: #15:
    Utter, utter, analogy fail. Here it is, spelled out for you:
    People laughed at Galileo, Einstein, Edison, because they didn't understand what they were talking about.
    People laugh at Bozo the Clown, because he acts funny, and misuses common things for comedic purposes. You fall solidly into this second camp.
    Bible codes are easily dismissed by statistical analysis, as shown in the link Mark posted in #8. This is because with sufficient end points - whether numbers, phrases, words, etc - you can always find a way to get to a result you desire. Compare this with the "Law of Fives:"

    The Law of Fives states simply that: All things happen in fives, or are divisible by or are multiples of five, or are somehow directly or indirectly appropriate to 5
    The Law of Fives is never wrong.
    —Malaclypse the Younger, Principia Discordia, Page 00016

    What you are claiming with your pseudo-religious number-wankery is exactly like this Law of Fives. With the exception of your desired results, how is what you are doing any different?
    (Hint: The correct answer is, 'It isn't any different'.)

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #15:
    (A) Excellent job entirely missing the point.
    (B) Nice story. Shame it's not true.
    WRT A, the point of that is that people have laughed at all sorts
    of people, for a variety of different reasons. People laughed at Einstein, because they didn't understand what he was talking about. People laughed at Galileo, because they believed he was wrong. People laughed at Bozo the clown because, well, he was a clown, and clowns are funny! The fact that people laugh at you, and they also laughed at Edison (if they in fact did) doesn't mean that they're laughing at you for the same reason. You're the author of an utterly ridiculous argument based on (at best) sloppy statistics, and you're utterly incapable of addressing criticisms of those arguments - so you try to distract us by going on rants about how brilliant you are. People laugh at you because you're acting like an idiot.
    Which is a nice segue into (B). Your attempt to distract from your inability to actually address criticisms just makes you look even more like an idiot. See, there's nothing in relativity, lorentz transformation, or time dilation that says that variable motion is impossible. In fact, that's *so* far from what relativity and related mathematical physics said that it proves only to demonstrate how little you know.
    (What relativity says is that absolute velocity and absolute position are meaningless; both can only be measured relative to something else. In doesn't say that variable motion, or variable velocity, is impossible. In fact, if variable motion
    is impossible, then none of the equations of relativity mean anything - because they all talk about velocity and acceleration.)

  • tsig says:

    No one laughed at Galileo. Inquisitors are not known for their sense of humor.

  • GOTCHA says:

    You speak with certainty, yet you know nothing.
    That is the equation of insanity.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    And another utterly content free reply that doesn't actually address any of the criticisms of your rubbish... Why am I not surprised?

  • SteveM says:

    The truth [of the lightbulb] was basically the last on a very long list.

    Didja ever notice that when you are looking for something, it is always in the last place you look?

  • jjsocrates says:

    The easiest way to debunk any of these Bible Codes of course, is not just to look in ANOTHER book of similarly large numbers of words (such as Moby Dick, The Lord of the Rings, etc.) is to generate our very own Bible, using nothing but a random number generator programmed to create a bunch of jibberish and random nonsense words. And heck, we can call that "language" English, Aramaic, Greek, Chinese or whatever. But it simply represents our data set.
    In short, we could create a "Bible" of 100% pure and absolute NOISE. There should be no signal to detect in this noise, but due to sheer chance, we would expect to find a number of "Sean the Prophet" using any cleverly (or not so cleverly) designed algorithm.
    The presence of a pattern inside a set of pure noise does not indicate a signal. It simply demonstrates some basics of probability. Of coure, one could rationalize that finding "Sean the Prophet" in a pure noise sample is indication of design, unless you also count the number of times that "Sean the Dope" appears as well.

  • GOTCHA says:

    If the mind is on the right track, one understands the basics of the structure of reality without the need to be taught of it, thus there is the independent outcome of creating equations that are also identical to the equations known today as the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction equation, the Time Dilation equation, the Lorentz Transformation equations, and the Velocity Addition equation.
    Now if you are a complete jackass, then you will not realize that if the mind is on the right track, thus is connected to truths rather than errors, this leads to further successful achievements elsewhere.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/forum_againstum2.htm
    Concerning "variable motion", all objects have a constant magnitude of motion within the open four dimensional environment known as Space-Time. (See above website) We can not look across time, thus we can only see what percentage of that motion is across Space, and this percentage is determined by what direction it is that an object is traveling within that open four dimensional environment known as Space-Time.
    But the war at hand at this time is basically " I know more than you do.".
    Those who know, have collected a mass storage of knowledge units.
    Those who understand, chose a different path such that they can see a bigger picture, rather than collect mere fragments of it known as units of knowledge.
    The knowledgeable then argue with those who understand, and do so by shattering the picture into even smaller units of knowledge, leading back to the "I win" because " I know more than you do.".
    The knowledgeable argue that your a presentation is not whole and complete unless it is composed of separate units, those of course being the separate units of knowledge that they are familiar with. Thus they are saying that a glass is not complete and whole, unless it is shattered into separate pieces.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
    And then ......

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    I will merely note that, once again, you fail to actually address any criticisms of your alleged brilliance.
    Your code is statistical rubbish, and you can't actually address that. You can just fling insults and make grandiose claims.
    Your supposed brilliance about independently inventing relativity is pure rubbish - as typical for crackpots, you claim that you've got some brilliant method of deriving the equations of relativity - but you don't actually show it - you just talk, and your talk demonstrates your lack of understanding of what you claim to be able to do.
    Seriously - just address the statistical criticisms of your nonsense. Can you? Or is this all just bluster?

  • Dan J says:

    The crackpottery… it burns.
    It really is amazing the lengths that some people will go to in order to attempt to justify their firm belief in things that have no evidence for their existence.
    Mr. Proudler, please, for your own sake if not everyone else's, seek out a good psychiatrist. Your messiah complex is most likely the result of chemical imbalances within your brain, coupled with indoctrination into some type of Christian death cult. A couple years of talk therapy, along with any necessary psychotropic medication, will work wonders.

  • Brent says:

    Proudler is an absolute clown; watch as he just dances around actually having to speak on the topic at hand ( that is his fake alleged "codes" garbage). As for the all the other things he says he just rambles incoherently and makes absolutely no points! Truly a crackpot.

  • GOTCHA says:

    You are dead.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #27:
    Gosh, that's funny, because I feel awfully alive.
    You can't address any of the criticisms of your supposedly brilliant work - and so, you resort to threats. Clearly an excellent demonstration that you're a real prophet.

  • GOTCHA says:

    That is what happens to those who have no respect what so ever for a fellow man. It is also known as being " Left behind ".

  • GOTCHA says:

    Loss of eternal life is no laughing matter to the sane. You don't want it,.... fine, you don't get it.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    I "have no respect for my fellow man"? Why? Because
    I pointed out that you're full of shit? Because I dared to point out that you can't actually address any of the criticisms of your rubbish?

  • Dan J says:

    That is what happens to those who have no respect what so ever for a fellow man.

    It is certainly not true that I have no respect for my fellow man. I respect you as a human being. However, I do not respect your ideas regarding this "bible code". These are two very different things. It is my respect for you as a human being that prompts me once again to suggest that you seek out psychiatric help.

  • Jackal says:

    Delusions of grandor and the tendency to find "patterns" in random noise are both symptoms of paradoid schizophrenia.

  • GOTCHA says:

    Now that's funny, along with " paradoid " what ever that is of course.
    It reminds me of a old joke that is related to psychiatrists. A guy pays his psychiatrist a visit and informs him that he is having visions and is hearing voices. He gives the doctor all the details.
    The psychiatrist then says that " I'd say you're either really really mad, or really really religious."
    Thus if our little patient here did actually make contact with the big boss himself, God that is, the entity that a massive number of people across the globe believe truly exists, then obviously this patient must have a mind that is quite sane indeed, since ones mind must be sane to make full contact with the most sane mind of all and ever.
    Thus the psychiatrist is saying that either the fellow is very very insane, or he is very very sane. Thus the event was either very very very NOT real, or was truly truly truly real indeed.
    These are clearly opposite extremes, yet within this joke, our fictitious psychiatrist places them side by side separated by only a fine line, rather than have placed them as far apart as possible from each other, as they of course naturally should be. Despite this being meant to be a joke, it is nothing particularly new.
    These days it is said that a powerful religious experience is quite possible indeed, however, if you do have one, then it is also said that you are clearly as crazy as crazy can be. Thus the minds of today say that this kind of an event is 100% possible, yet at the same time it is said that it is 100% impossible.
    This split minded judgment, which makes it impossible to discern one extreme from the other, occurs due to the mind not being able to see the full spectrum of reality. Call this typical and global split minded judgment, a form of Schizophrenia.
    If those who practice this split minded form of judgment encounter a person whose mind is whole and intact, rather than split, naturally they will see this whole mind as a split mind due to their demented judgment abilities.
    Due to their now limited abilities, they become dependent upon a form of global consensus that is used to determine what is, and what is not.
    Thus if an intellectual breakthrough occurs, which always starts in the corner if you will due to such steps always being achieved by a minority first, it is rejected by the majority since it does not agree with the opinions already collected by this majority, via the group consensus that is constantly at work in the background.
    The majority rejects all forms of proof, and does so since a split mind can not properly see the completeness of such proof.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    In other words, you're not going to address any of the criticisms of your work.
    Why don't you just make it simple, and admit that? It's not that you're some kind of super-religious person operating on a higher order of intellectual being - if you were, you'd be able to actually address some of the critiques of your nonsense.
    But the simple and obvious fact is: you're not capable of actually finding any problems in any of the critiques of your "work". You're smugly, arrogantly certain that you're right - but you're not able to identify anything that's wrong with the arguments coming from your critics. So you go off on this long-winded tangents about how brilliant you are, and how stupid everyone who disagrees with you must be. But you never, ever make the slightest attempt to demonstrate the least understanding of the critiques, nor the slightest ability to actually answer them.
    Tell me - what's the probability of finding any of your strings using skip-codes in the bible? Are you capable of computing that, or are you just blindly asserting that it must be incredibly improbable?

  • Dan J says:

    GOTCHA said:

    …God that is, the entity that a massive number of people across the globe believe truly exists…

    At one time, the majority of the earth's population believed that the world was flat. Did that make it true? No. How do we know it isn't true? People made observations and performed experiments. They documented their findings so that others could perform those same experiments.

    Due to their now limited abilities, they become dependent upon a form of global consensus that is used to determine what is, and what is not.

    Isn't this “consensus“ exactly what you are pointing to in the first paragraph when proposing your god's existence? You know, you can't have it both ways.

    The majority rejects all forms of proof, and does so since a split mind can not properly see the completeness of such proof.

    That sounds like a fairly good description of fundamental religions to me.
    But let's get back to the math. As Mark said, you aren't addressing any of the criticism of your work. Can you show us the probability of finding any particular word or phrase in any particular text of a given length using any particular skip-length? Perhaps your faith in your abilities is much shakier than you espouse.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Mr.Chu-Carroll give us a link of a professional statistician,Brendan McKay,who claim has refuted Torah codes.It seems to me people here don´t know the process of "refutation",here is the "refutation":Witztum Rips Rosenberg:"We have found patterns in Genesis,that is, logically related words tend to be in close proximity.We have performed an experiment that confirmed this:"The famous rabbis experiment".Brendan McKay et al.:"You have biased all,this is rubbish.We can do the same in "War and peace" if i look for appelations before:"Scientific refutation of Torah codes"(Statistical Science).WRR:"But if we look for in Torah we can found phrases(E.L.S.extensions)like this one:"I will name you destrution cursed Bin Laden and the revenge to the Messiah" McKay:"I can find also phrases in "Moby Dick" like this one":"It oceans hold Joy"!!!!!!.Facts are facts and only with words and narrow minds you can´t bury something like this...

  • Brent says:

    For vilnagaon; just read Brendan McKay's destruction of the "Bible Codes" liars: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html
    He shows how rips, rosenbergs, etc. "experiment" is a fraud and even they admitted it failed when tested!
    See: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/gans_exp.html
    It is well known that so-called "Bible codes" have no rules about them and are open to so much wiggle room. It is also proven that so-called "Bible Codes" can be found in any book of equal or comparable length for example: "Moby Dick" and "War & Peace". Brendan McKay even shows these "codes" in the English version of "Moby Dick" which is more impressive then the "Bible Codes" people who have the aided benefit of the huge flexibility in the Hebrew language; that adds even more room for them to play around.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #37:
    The basic claim of the bible code folks is "We've found a set of patterns in the bible which do not exist in any other text. These anomalous patterns prove that it could only have been authored by a supernatural being with knowledge of the future."
    If those patterns turn out to be subjectively assembled, and similar patterns occur in other texts, that's a solid refutation of the idea that these codes only appear in the bible. It also means that you can't conclude anything about the bible on the basis of those codes.
    But McKay et al do much more than just demonstrate that similar patterns occur in other texts of similar size; they provide a full, detailed analysis of the flaws in the experimental method that supposedly proved the codes; and a detailed statistical analysis of the properties of texts that demonstrates why similar patterns occur in all sufficiently large texts.
    All in all, it's a very solid refutation. It's got both the simple, intuitive proof in the form of a counterexample; and it's got a more detailed proof based on probability theory. If that's not sufficient as a disproof of the bible codes, then what would be?

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Please,i need a phrase like that one from a control text,no more words."War and peace"in hebrew because it was the one to perform the "refutation" of the "Famous rabbis experiment".We would be agree thatboth sides did the same,you are free to choose the topic then we will compare.Meanwhile the last word(last words)is:"I will call you destruction cursed Bin Laden and the the revenge to the Messiah".

  • Vilnagaon says:

    "and similar patterns occur in other texts, that's a solid refutation of the idea that these codes only appear in the bible"(Mark Chu-Carroll).Do you think: "I will call you destruction cursed Bin Laden and the the revenge to the Messiah"(Torah) is similar to:"It oceans hold joy"(Moby Dick)?.I think the first one is impressive ,the other one is only a chance product showed as a "similar pattern" by Dr Brendan Mackay,i swear i have heard it from his own mouth in a TV program.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #41:
    Have you actually *looked* at McKay et al's paper? Because the stuff you're talking about has nothing to do with it.
    How about:
    (A) You tell us where the hell your examples are coming from - statistical method and
    textual location.
    (B) Actually look at the McKay et al, and respond to that rather than to some vaguely remembered TV show that we can't see?
    If you want an interesting example of the codes that can be found in Moby Dick, see here: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/diana.html; among others, you can find "Lady Diana", "Royal", "Dodi", "Henri Paul" (the name of the driver in the car when she died) and "mortal in these jaws of death", all within one small segment of the english text of Moby Dick - and the only segment of Moby Dick in which skip codes yielded "Lady Diana".
    And coincidences like that are less likely in english than in hebrew.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Here you have a peer reviewed paper by Torah code proponents with all the details:http://www.torah-code.org/papers/belgpdf.pdf.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    On the other hand i found this by Brendan McKay:"I asked my ELS finder to list all the ELSs for "OCEANS" in Moby Dick, together with the letters extending the ELS at the same skip in both directions. Then I stared at the results looking for anything nice. There are 13,905 ELSs of "OCEANS" altogether, but fortunately I found what I wanted without looking at more than 400 or so:
    IT-OCEANS-HOLDJOYBRSEHOIS
    After having made that discovery, I asked the following question:
    (*) What is the probability of "Oceans hold Joy" appearing by chance?
    The answer is "1 in 13.7 million". Here we see the thing that people are having trouble grasping: "1 in 13.7 million" is CORRECT, but NOT AMAZING. It is CORRECT as the mathematical answer to question (*), but it is NOT AMAZING because (*) is the wrong question.
    The reason why (*) is the wrong question is that I was not looking for "Oceans hold Joy". I was looking for "any nice phrase that included the word OCEANS". The correct question is
    (#) What is the probability that Moby Dick has a nice phrase including the word "OCEANS"?
    That question is too imprecise to allow a mathematical calculation. From experience I would say that the answer is "not very small".
    Exactly the same problem holds for the ELSs in the Cramer-Eldridge paper. The probabilities there are not wrong. They are correct answers to the wrong questions.
    Brendan McKay
    Notes:
    1. Suppose I convinced you that what I did was this: Based on my knowledge of the book, I predicted that the phrase "Oceans hold Joy" should be there as an ELS. Then I asked my computer, and amazingly it was there. Would you be impressed by Moby Dick, or would you be impressed by me?
    2. Question (#) isn't really the right question either. If I was unsuccessful with OCEANS, I would have tried "THE OCEAN", "THE DEEP", "WHALES", and so on. Naturally I would not mention the things that failed. The overall chance of success (the real correct answer) was just a measure of how persistent I was."

  • Brent says:

    What are you talking about? Tons of "codes" have been found in "Moby Dick", "War & Peace", etc. From "Moby Dick" examples; http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html
    Examples:
    Indira Gandhi- "IGANDHI", "THE BLOODY DEED"
    Soviet Exile Leon Trotsky- "TROTSKY", "HAMMER", "EXECUTED", "ICE", "THESTEELHEADOFTHELANCE"
    The Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.-
    "MLKING", "TOBEKILLEDBYTHEM", "PREPAREDFORDEATH", "GUN", "US AGENT DEED"
    John F. Kennedy- "KENNEDY", "SHOT", "HEAD", "HADBEENSOKILLED", "REMAINEDINVISIBLYENSHRINEDWITHIN", "HESTOODVERYQUIETLY", "RIFLE", "COFFINS"
    Tons more examples are there.

  • joel says:

    get a life you sad gimp!
    quit crying over a stupid dog you smelly nerd!

  • Vilnagaon says:

    All those "codes" were obtained through snooping,the Torah codes proponents claim they didn´t snoop.With the E.L.S.extensions we are pretty SURE that all sides look for,snooping for something.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #47:
    This is what we call the Gish gallop.
    In other words, when confronted with answers to your objections, you change the objections.
    First, it was that there were wonderful codes in the bible that couldn't be reproduced in other texts - like your Bin laden example.
    But that didn't work - there are plenty of apparently anomalous patterns in other texts that look just as impressive as codes. So now, suddenly, you have to change the standard - it's not just that the codes were there in the text, but it's a question of how much work it took to find them.
    The problem is, if you go back and look at the original codes, despite their *claims* that they didn't snoop, it's quite obvious that they did. They selected a particular group of Rabbis' names, spelled those names in a particular way, formatted their birth/death dates in a particular fashion, and found an apparent pattern. But if you change the format of the dates, or you choose different ways of writing their names, the patterns disappear. And it certainly appears that they cherry-picked to produce a list that had the best-looking pattern. The original codes folks claimed to have taken the list of names and dates from a particular textbook - but their list *omits* several names that perfectly fit their selection criteria. Why? Because if you include those names, the results aren't as good.
    So even with your attempt to move the goalposts, the defense fails: the original torah codes guys *did* engage in plenty of "snooping" in order to discover their patterns.
    Not to mention that I'm quite sure it took some snooping to find your "bin laden" example.
    The basic fact underlying this is that given a sufficiently large amount of data, you can always find patterns in it. If you don't understand the statistical properties of your data, it can seem as if those patterns are anomalous or strange or surprising, or ever supernatural. But the statistical nature of language means that it's *very* likely that
    you'll find apparent linguistic patterns in any large text. All of the bible codes are nothing more than random noise that our minds perceive as meaningful patterns. The codes in the bible are no more real than the codes in War and Peace or Moby Dick.
    And I say that as a religious Jew who does believe in the divine origin of the Torah.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    I think your argument is flawed because you can CHOOSE the topic that you want and try to find extensions.With almost ilimitate number of topics logically it would be very easy to find something relevant,very easy.Providing more evidence Prof.Eliyahu Rips and his team show us MANY PHRASES from the Torah like this one:"Esav ambushes via Titus,he will raise one cry,it will continue like this" ¡29 letters in correct hebrew!.As a religious Jew for sure you will know the relevance of this phrase but for the other people,they can consult Bereshit:27:38.Please compare this with that "nice phrase":"It oceans hold Joy",really terrible phrase,and nonsense.Logically is more consistent the position of Torah codes proponents,if we snoop we find MESSAGES if you snoop very hardly find clusters of words.Shalom Mark and sorrow for your dog i got one and i can imagine what you feel now

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    And you're back to your bullshit little example, ignoring the better ones that multiple people have presented.
    And you ignore the fact that Rips et al clearly *did* hunt and cherry-pick - as I pointed out above.
    The torah is a special text to me - for spiritual reasons. I don't need some fake, bullshit mathematical argument to make it special. It's special because of what it is. Rips and friends ignored the simple statistical nature of text, and used cherry-picking and other dishonest methods to create the appearance of an anomaly that isn't there. As a religious Jew, I don't understand the need for any of this. If the torah doesn't contain these silly codes, would that make it any less important?

  • GOTCHA says:

    If you are located at a distance from the truth, then you are dependent upon a beliefs and disbeliefs.
    Thus if you choose to be a believer, such as a religious believer, then you choose to remain at a distance from the truth, since it is your beliefs that you place first in line when making decisions. Thus you remain within the confinement of a belief system, thus you do not reach the truth since it is the beliefs that are located at a distance from the truth itself.
    This act then maintains the presence of multiple ongoing conflicting religions, since non of the believers are interested in the truth.
    This practice of belief is a human action. It also maintains human limitations. Thus for such a person to accept the fact that the intellect of God exceeds the intellect of mankind, and behave accordingly to such acceptance, is an action that simply will not occur. Thus if codes are embedded within the Bible, and with good reason, a believer will simply say that such an act is beyond the limits of God's power and reason. " God is no greater than I. ", is what is being said. " I call the shots, not God." is also being said.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
    Thus a believer will crucify the truth, as was proven approx. 2,000 years ago.

  • Brent says:

    "gotcha" as Mark as said, you simply refuse to answer any of the critcisms of you! You simply go on blabbering, which shows you are refuted.

  • Ryan Cunningham says:

    With a username like GOTCHA, are we sure this isn't just an elaborate prank?

  • Dan J says:

    Ryan, I definitely see where you're coming from with that. Seeing his web site though makes me think he is not kidding. Unfortunately, I've seen much more coherent text come out of a hacked up Eliza or Racter program. Let's just leave it at the fact that he's a guy suffering from a religious psychosis. We'll never get a straight answer out of him.

  • GOTCHA says:

    On the grand scope of the ALL, there is positive, and there is negative. Yet, lies truly exist, thus a thin skin of truth even surrounds the lies, thus truth has the upper hand.
    That thin skin, relative to the all, allowed the creation of this reality that you know of. It is a thin slice of ALL time, known as the present.
    But humans are foolish, thus they allowed the entry of the negative into this world.
    Thus what we now have is earth as it is, sandwiched between the good and the evil. Those who are from the evil side, are the best of the best from the evil side.
    Those who are from the good, are the worst of the good.
    If you choose the good, you will rise into that which is so good, so perfect, it is beyond your present understanding.
    If you choose the evil, you have already seen their best.
    The choice is yours.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • themann1086 says:

    Dude, can I buy some pot from you? You obviously have access to a fantastic stash.

  • Dan J says:

    Delusional said:

    On the grand scope of the ALL, there is positive, and there is negative. Yet, lies truly exist, thus a thin skin of truth even surrounds the lies, thus truth has the upper hand.

    That is one of the most meaningless pieces of drivel I've ever had the misfortune to attempt to parse. Seriously, you are in great need of psychiatric assistance, and the sooner, the better.

  • Brent says:

    "gotcha" you truly are a sad individual!

  • GOTCHA says:

    Your so kind. Say, did you check the 28 codes concerning the New Jerusalem. See http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode_shroud_turin.htm
    The Old Jerusalem was simply created to identify those who would even kill to ensure that they received a piece of God's future pie. It worked like clockwork.
    It was also part of the plan to identify those who would sacrifice others such that they would receive a "free" Paradise due to it eternally be paid for by the eternally sacrificed, the so called " ScapeGoats ". This too worked like clockwork. Dump all of their theft, murders, rapes, you name it, they were going to dump it all upon the " ScapeGoats ", and thus break every single commandment for eternity.
    Judgment is done. Those who spit into the face of truth have ALL been identified. That's right, I do call the shots.
    Yes, I am as gentile as a puppy, but I still do draw the line. But despite the ongoing agony of this war, one still has to laugh now and then. Watch the movie " The Passion of the Christ ", and during the flogging you will notice the Christ figure bark like a puppy. That was a joke between me and my ???

  • Brent says:

    Again "gotcha" just read from the article; What are some of his results? He wants to search for the answer "What is the mark of christ?". He pulls out first the word "mark" - that's going to be what he searches for. Then he takes the word "christ", and uses it to set the skip distances to search, using its numerical value of 462. But since he needs a range of search distances, he arbitrarily decides to add 1000 to it, and searches for references to "mark", using skip distances ranging from 462 to 1462. Why those numbers? Why 1462 instead of 2462, or 10462? Because 1462 is the one that works. Using that, the number of matches for "mark" is 462.
    Another one, he asks "What is the mark of jesus christ, jesus?". He sets the skip range from -906 (the english gematria for "jesus christ") to +888 (the greek gematria code for "Jesus"), and searches for the word "mark", and comes up with 906 hits.
    He plays with all sorts of similarly stupid stuff. Because of the way that he uses both wrapping, and ranges of skip codes, he's gotten even sillier than the usual bible code stuff. If you can pick any range of skip distances, and any search string, you can come up with pretty much any answer you want.
    ...
    On the fraud "Shroud of Turin" see this link: http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/proof_that_shroud_is_fake.htm

  • GOTCHA says:

    Just invert what Brent said, and this will help you understand the code.
    The Bible Code page has also just been updated a tad.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • Brent says:

    "Gotcha" you make no points, Mark Chu-Carroll has completely refuted you and you've yet to answer even one of the critiques he's made of you.
    Again; Mark says: But since he needs a range of search distances, he arbitrarily decides to add 1000 to it, and searches for references to "mark", using skip distances ranging from 462 to 1462. Why those numbers? Why 1462 instead of 2462, or 10462? Because 1462 is the one that works. Using that, the number of matches for "mark" is 462.
    ...
    Your simply arbitrarily picking and choosing with no rhyme or reason!
    Mark seems up his refutation or your pathetic garbage: If you can pick any range of skip distances, and any search string, you can come up with pretty much any answer you want.

  • Brent says:

    By the way "Gotcha" if you really are this "K. Sean Proudler" person you should pay the $100,000 (Canadian dollars), you stated you'd give to anyone who refuted you, to Mr. Mark Chu-Carroll! If you really held true to this you'd be handing out many thousands of Canadian dollars, to many people, money I'm assuming you don't even have!

  • Brent says:

    If you have this alleged money "Gotcha" then you either should offer some defense to the crushing refutation of your claims by Mr. Mark Chu-Carroll or give him the money you promised!

  • GOTCHA says:

    All that has been mentioned so far is comical hersay.
    You say ....
    "I will merely note that, once again, you fail to actually address any criticisms of your alleged brilliance. Your code is statistical rubbish, and you can't actually address that. You can just fling insults and make grandiose claims. Your supposed brilliance about independently inventing relativity is pure rubbish - as typical for crackpots, you claim that you've got some brilliant method of deriving the equations of relativity - but you don't actually show it - you just talk, and your talk demonstrates your lack of understanding of what you claim to be able to do. Seriously - just address the statistical criticisms of your nonsense. Can you? Or is this all just bluster? "
    No statistical analysis related to my particular Bible Codes has yet existed. Just because a square wheel is of no use, does not mean that a round one is no better.
    Concerning my "talk", as you call it, there is reason. Even in my younger days I was aware that if an action was done outside of my head, it was done outside of my head. Thus if "I" was to figure out the basics of the structure of reality, the complete understanding had to be within my mind, thus I had to do it via thought, rather than let external mathematics do the work. My "Talk" relates to the thoughts that lead to the final outcome. Once I had figured it all out, via thought, it was not until then that I had proceeded to convert it into equations.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/forum_againstum2.htm
    However, it is true that many people need to work externally, via Mathematics, to compensate for what is missing internally.

  • Brent says:

    "Gotcha" you just keep dancing don't you! It is clear as day to everyone that you simply have no answers for the refutation of your work by Mr. Mark Chu-Carroll.
    Care to offer any responses to the following evidence of your fakery Mr. Chu-Carroll advanced; Quote- But since he needs a range of search distances, he arbitrarily decides to add 1000 to it, and searches for references to "mark", using skip distances ranging from 462 to 1462. Why those numbers? Why 1462 instead of 2462, or 10462? Because 1462 is the one that works. Using that, the number of matches for "mark" is 462.
    ...
    Because of the way that he uses both wrapping, and ranges of skip codes, he's gotten even sillier than the usual bible code stuff. If you can pick any range of skip distances, and any search string, you can come up with pretty much any answer you want.
    end quote.
    Your just randomly picking a bunch of garbage and claiming your allegedly doing something "miraculous".
    Last thing, again there is NO such thing as "English Gematria" to begin with so your claims are garbage and fakery to start with!

  • GOTCHA says:

    The "1" refers to one character.
    444 = Lucifer, and Jesus = 444
    462 = Diabolos, and Christ = 462
    The intention of the outcome between good and evil was for the good to win, thus the Jesus is to be the Jesus, rather than have the Lucifer claiming to be the Jesus.
    If deception was in the picture, then one 444 in the ELS range may refer to Jesus, yet the other 444 refers to Lucifer, thus they are not "1" in the same.
    However, when "1" is placed before 444 or 462, then even though the number 444 or 462 appears twice, it is still is referring to "1" character in particular, rather than both characters.
    You will notice that in the old testament when searching for the "MARK" "OF GOD" with the ELS set from -462 to 462, the 1 is not included, and the outcome count is 2(462). At this point in the introduction to this code system, I felt that it was best not to point out that the 2(462) represented both Diabolos and Christ, which relates to the time at which there is still an undetermined winner of the war between good and evil.
    Pointing out that Diabolos = 462 at this early stage would probably have added confusion.
    The wrapping function increases the number of word match counts by a only 0.5% or so on average, and that is only if a rare occurrence of a change in count occurs.
    On top of that, there is not 4 million characters within the new testament, but in fact there is 739,166 letter characters.
    It's a long long story, but in short, the code 9 Greek gematria is related to Jesus, and the code 6 English gematria is related to man, hence number 6 since man was created on the sixth day.

  • Brent says:

    More nonsense "Gotcha". MarkCC has completely refuted you, and there is no such thing as "English gematria" to begin with!

  • GOTCHA says:

    A God created a universe. Somebody appears before God and says " I'm looking for the stupidest beings in this universe of yours." , " What would you recommend I do to find them?".
    God says, " That's quite simple. All you have to do is place a huge truth directly in front of them, and if they can't see that truth, even though they are looking directly at it, then they clearly have perfected stupidity. But it gets better. If what they do see as they stare at it, is the exact opposite of the truth, then you have witnessed the practice of grand stupidity. And of course if they continue to make the same mistake over and over, then you have found what you are looking for.
    " Well that makes sense." says the fellow, " What huge truth would you recommend ? ".
    God replies, " Well I am as huge as huge can be, and I am true to my word and so forth, but...... I'm kind of busy at the moment. I'm throwing a few more universes together this weekend.". " Tell you what though... I could lone you my son Jesus. He is only a tad smaller than me, and he is obsessed with truth. He is the truth, the way of truth, etc.".
    " Now here is what you should look for", says God. " When my son speaks the truth, an absolute idiot will see the exact opposite of the massive and obvious truth, thus the complete fool will see his words as lies rather than truths. If my son said he was my son, the son of God, the absolute idiot will see the exact opposite of the truth, thus will think that my son is related to Satan, and proceed to call my son a blasphemer.
    Now since the value of my son is positively infinite, an absolute idiot will see his value as the exact opposite, and thus will treat him like pure rubbish, and dispose of him accordingly.".
    And sure enough, with the help of Jesus, the stupidest beings within the entire universe were discovered.
    But still he was puzzled as to how and why these beings had perfected stupidity to the maximum level ever possible between the beginning and end of time. What is the cause of such an insanity?
    God begins to explain. ... " They are believers ". This stupidity occurs when believers strongly defend their beliefs and thus have elevated their beliefs to the highest level, and thus block out everything else other than beliefs, despite the fact that truths clearly outrank beliefs.
    A truth is complete. A belief on the other hand is only required if one is at a distance from the truth, thus a belief is a form of incompleteness. Yet these beings saw it to be fit and logical to condemn the greater, via the power of the lesser. As I have said, this insanity occurred due to these believers having proceeded to place their beliefs at the top of the ladder, and thus in doing so had also chosen to replace that which truly belongs at the top of the ladder, with that which does not.
    Truth is as truthful as truth can be, and thus it is truth that should rightly sit at the top.
    Beliefs can be raised, yet truth can be raised no higher. As a consequence of this, if beliefs are raised to the top, then truth must be relocated via motion in the only other direction available, which is the downward direction. A massive shift takes place. Truth ends up at the bottom due to having to start all over again, thus it is now given a new home at the lowest possible level. Call it the bottom of Satan’s rubbish bin.
    Nothing could be worse!
    Once the believers have blindly redefined truth as being pure rubbish, gibberish, nonsense, etc., and do so by repositioning truth as far away as possible from where it truly belongs, naturally it becomes logical to then treat Jesus as though he too is pure rubbish. His words must then be perceived to be nothing but pure rubbish. He must be disposed of as though his value is no more than the value of pure rubbish. If the quantity of such fools is great enough, then these actions become a reality, thus the insane proceeded to spit into his face, scourge him, and crucify him.
    If this displacement of truth is left to be permanent, then the most demonic, destructive, unjust, and infinitely insane events, all occur. Each is so extreme that they extend far beyond mere human comprehension, and thus become completely unavoidable and inescapable. All that is required to guarantee 100% success of such a disaster, is to have a large group of religious believers available who place their beliefs as number one. The entire world becomes deceived. Christ becomes the Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ becomes the Christ. God becomes Satan. Satan becomes God. Job done.
    Nothing truly could be any easier, thanks to the blind but extensive assistance of the absolute idiots who believe that less than truth is obviously more truthful than truth itself, and thus always base their decisions upon beliefs, thus the far bigger " Truth " is always rejected no matter what.
    Thus those who spit into the face of truth, intentionally or not, become 100% supporters of Satan."

  • GOTCHA says:

    The purpose of religious belief systems was to direct people toward the truth, NOT to stay in the zone of less than truth.
    A fellow is at home with his wife. While lying on the couch, he asks his wife if she has seen his wallet. She say that she believes it is over in the corner of the room underneath his sports magazine. The husband starts to get up off the couch when suddenly his wife demands that he stay on the couch. She says, " Honey, remember you promised to be a believer, and if you go over there and find your wallet, then you will truly know that your wallet is there, and there goes your dedication toward beliefs. ".
    " You are wise. ". says the husband.
    Later in the day the wife picks up his wallet and removes half the money and stuffs it in her pocket and then gives the husband his wallet.
    And so they make a great team. He prefers to be a believer, and thus remain at a distance from the truth, and his wife is a thief.
    Thus if there are multiple religions, with each retaining their specific religion by remaining at a distance from the truth, thanks to such an act of ignorance toward truth, Satan and his followers are set free to deceive and deceive, and deceive, and deceive and.....
    Thus the structure of reality had to be closed one such that the truth eventually comes full circle and meets those who previously spat at it. This is the only way left to prevent truth from being eternally rejected. Thus all of the agony that Satan and his followers inflicted upon the most innocent of all, comes full circle and hits those who opened Satan's door. Such impact is is indescribable.
    The option is to connect to the truth now, but no one wants the truth as of yet.

  • GOTCHA says:

    Division of this nature is not wanted. Peace is wanted. Peace is not related to division. Mature minds are responcibe minds. Reponcible minds think.

  • Brent says:

    "Gotcha" your still blabbering nonsense, clearly you have been refuted by MarkCC's scholarly work!

  • GOTCHA says:

    Thanks for your response of specific manner. Once again it helps me to accept the fact that not all people can be saved. Every day for seven years I gave those who rejected the truth, another chance to change their mind.
    Now the time has come when I will do this no more. Since your loss is infinite in scale, and eternal in length, thank your lucky stars that you are only human. Your mind is finite in size, thus in no way at all can you comprehend what it is that you have thrown away.

  • Brent says:

    "Gotcha" you need serious mental help.

  • Brent says:

    "Gotcha" you need serious mental help.

  • GOTCHA says:

    Not everyone, such as Brent, can see the truth, thus they are located at a distance from the truth, thus they can only see less than truth. Located at a distance from the truth, they are therefore dependent upon beliefs and disbeliefs instead. Maintain this practice of dependency for a long enough time period, and any of their previous desires to escape from such a dependency, via venturing toward truths, become permanently buried due to this dependency becoming a major component of their daily thought processes. Thus, even as adults they will still rank beliefs and disbeliefs as satisfactory substitutions of truths. Since they cannot see what it is that sits beyond beliefs and disbeliefs, meaning the truth, this deliberate acceptance of only less than truth is what leads to the immediate and inevitable rejection of actual truths. Since they cannot see the truth, the truth becomes an empty nothingness, thus anything else related to this " empty nothingness ", immediately becomes highly rated. Thus such people always firmly insist that less than truth, a belief, is far more truthful than truth itself, despite the complete absurdity of such a claim.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • Brent says:

    "Gotcha" you cannot answer any of the refutations made of you; just admit it!

  • Paul M. says:

    GOTCHA, you are a hypocrite as well as a loon - lampooning one's misspellings (#34) while making similar errors yourself (#74).
    You are clearly out of your depth here, but thanks for the amusement.

  • GOTCHA says:

    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
    A nice " THE SON " " OF GOD " addition, don't you think Last-Word-Men(Brent, Paul M.) ?

  • Brent says:

    "Gotcha" yet more babbling from me; your last comment made no point at all.

  • Brent says:

    more babbling from you, mistype at first.

  • GOTCHA says:

    That's right. It was my comment in combination with the updates at the website.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • Deepest sympathies.
    Our dog is a member of the family, and I would be devastated when she passes. Yesterday afternoon, my wife, looking at me, asked "will you walk the dog now?"
    Our dog, recognizing that we spoke of her, and recognizing that my wife was speaking to me, and hearing the keyword "walk" -- immediately ran to me, wagging her tail and looking towards the leash hanging by the door.
    We know that our dog is conscious, and loves us with no strings attached. Which is more than most humans can do.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Sorry Mark but you,skeptics,present objections to the Torah code hipothesis,not the reverse.When we find answers,messages,phrases,you change your objections,it´s a matter of time,e.t.c.
    If that example showed by Brendan MacKay is good math and a correct refutation,i am the Pope.What a ridiculous phrase,what a ridiculous methodology-"after looking for 400 E.l.S´s of the word "Oceans" or so...".Myself,with no deep knowledge of hebrew,have found many,and relevant phrases, better than that in the Torah.

  • Brent says:

    The "torah codes" are a myth and such "codes" can be found in any book of comparable length as the "Torah".
    Again: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html
    Or as stated here: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4048
    Also for clown "gotcha" again Dr. Carrol showed how you just play random games that are easily refuted. As he said "Roughly 100%. If you can play any numeric games you want, and interpret the results any way you want, you can get any results you want"
    Also again there is NO such thing as "English gematria" it is a fraud from the start!

  • Vilnagaon says:

    a)First link:nothing new here,McKay have to refute this paper,among others, presented at the 18th International of Pattern Recognition(Hong Kong 2006):http://www.torah-code.org/papers/levitt.pdf,meanwhile as i said before these papers are the last words in the whole issue-
    b)Second link:sorry,i only read two first rows...it´s incredible someone can consider Torah codes as "modern pop phenomena" unless you are ready to include:Rabbi Moshe Cordovero,the Ramban,the Rambam,the Vilna Gaon as modern thinkers...

  • Vilnagaon says:

    P.D:paper presented,peer reviewed and approved...

  • Brent says:

    The "torah codes" can be found in any book of equal or equivalent length to the Hebrew "Torah". Also another huge tool of deception used by the "bible codes" people is the flexibility of the Hebrew language. As Brendan McKay shows at this link: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/abulafia.html
    Also as other sources tell us: "The weakness of the bible codes: The inherent ambiguity of the Hebrew language"

  • GOTCHA says:

    Say has Mark Chu-Carroll done the statistical analysis yet concerning the Codes, or is he just sticking to opinions?
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Nah Brent, an oppinion clearly insufficient to refute nothing, please statistical method,analyses,e.t.c.Brendan McKay clearly is lying us,the logic tells us, when he afirms:"... ELSs of "OCEANS" altogether, but fortunately I found what I wanted without looking at more than 400 or so...":Why not look for something relevant as Bin Laden,or Bush,or Al Qaida,or...?Simply because you can find only "phrases" as "Ant Ben Laden" or "Ment Ben Laden".Yes,you can find:"It oceans hold Joy" with an skip of 8908 in "Moby Dick" but i am quite sure he looked for the hundreds of Bin Ladens or Ben Ladens before and didn´t find anything.Again:http://www.torah-code.org/papers/levitt.pdf to know a correct scientific research-

  • My discovery: 2nd word from U.S. Constitution's Preamble, each Article, each Amendment:
    "The legislative, executive, judicial faith: Congress! Debts ratifications shall well soldier. Right person, all suits bail enumeration. Powers: Judicial Electors, slavery persons. Right Congress, Senate, one right terms. Eighteenth person District. Right case, right law."
    Diagonalization: Nth word of Article N:
    "All executive power: Credit. Thirds entered nine."
    Diagonalization (starting at Preamble as Article 0): (N+1)th word of Article N:
    "We legislative power of, shall, of, into States."

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Sorry Jonathan,i don´t understand anything.What "discover" are you repporting us?

  • "Sorry Jonathan,i don´t understand anything.What "discover" are you repporting us?"
    Vilnagaon unmasked. His comment begins with 1st letter of first word "S" followed by 1st letter of second word "J." That's Society of Jesus, also known as the Jesuits. Need I go on?

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Very funny,just as some examples by McKay but...Let´s compare it with those impressive messages found in the Torah.

  • GOTCHA says:

    If belief is part of the equation, then you will not reach the truth. Any response to Bible Codes that is based upon a belief, is a completely useless one.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
    Check the website, and if you find that you draw a conclusion via the practice of a belief, then truth is obviously not your forte.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Please Gotcha,those "codes" are based only upon belief,unless you show me an scientific work as i did before.I don´t want to discuss here about religion we are discussing here if the codes are valid from a scientific point of view.

  • K D Mains says:

    Hi Mark (and readers)
    As this thread is about Bible codes I thought I would ask what you make of somethng I have found in the Book of Revelation of the King James Bible.
    http://kd-mains.com/osama-bin-laden-revelations.htm
    That link has examples of a few of the things I have found, that one about Bush & Bin Laden. I have pages and pages of others to. The URL link in my name contains an example of one pertaining to Princess Diana and Dodi.
    If you look at the bin laden link you will see clerly the words "Read" & "Plans" and also interestingly you can find & see names of people from the Old Testament, like Aaron which can be seen starting in square eight on the grid on line 2.
    If you look over at the words Aser Manasseh and Nephtalim you can also see Manasseh's mothers name Asenath running through the three words.
    Would be interested in hearing your thoughts/views?

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    Re #100:
    Why on earth would you think that your nonsense is any different? I've spent so much time pointing out how these codes are nonsense, and that *any* sufficiently large corpus of text will contain this kind of stuff?
    It's coincidence. You can find equally impressive stuff in Tolkein, or in Moby Dick, or in the Proceedings of the 2006 ACM Conference on Programming Language Design and Implementation. It's an artifact of the statistical structure of language.

  • GOTCHA says:

    You fellows are so far behind that it is ridiculous. Once you learn the code, you know what you are going to expose before you have even exposed it, and you know where it is located before you have even looked.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • GOTCHA says:

    Update-- New " Lamb of God " proof, has been added to the following page. http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
    This was added to prove that some folks simply can't see the truth no matter what. These folks insist upon throwing their chance of having eternal life, deep deep deep into the rubbish bin.

  • GOTCHA says:

    Update-- Audio added to assist those who can not tell the difference between a bozo, and the exact opposite.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
    Make sure the full page is loaded before you mouse click on the speakers.

  • You Bible Code fanatics are so far behind that it is ridiculous. Once you learn the code, you know exactly how you will be debunked here before you have even typed your confabulations, and you know where your self-contradictions are located before you have even imagined them.

  • Zero says:

    I find it a little hard to swallow, "GOTCHA", that you profess that belief doesn't enter into the equation of the sacred meaning of the Bible (or any other religious text, for that matter). Is Christianity, or the belief in any other higher power, not based on faith? If we were intended to know for a fact that things are the way they are, God would come down to earth and say "Hey, this is me, this is where you're going. Have a nice day." It's the defiance of doubt, believing in something you can't prove, that makes religion what it is, for better or worse.

  • GOTCHA says:

    I am saying that if you stick to your beliefs, then you stick to your beliefs. A belief is only required if you are at a distance from the truth, thus stick to your beliefs and you stick to being at a distance from the truth.
    The "Religious" folk aren't budging a bit. They maintain that gap between themselves and the truth, and thus also maintain the existence of multiple religions since neither of them choose to venture toward the truth.
    Thus if that bigger truth is presented to them in the here and now here in real time, 100% of them reject it, since truth is not at a distance from itself. It has no GAP.
    Satan supports lies and deceit, while God and Jesus Christ, or whom ever one may think the good guys are, support the truth. Thus on the grand scale of things, all the religious folk (The Believers) support the bad guy(s) since truth is immediately rejected by them.
    Roughly 2,000 years ago a fellow made a point about this by presenting grand truths to those who could hear and see truths, and also to those who chose to be believers. Those who could hear and see truths accepted him. Those who chose to be believers, called him a liar, a blasphemer, they flogged him, and crucified him, and did so because his truths were not at a distance from themselves, thus they were unlike beliefs which actually are at a distance from truths.
    Thus the religious folk get it all backwards and see the Christ as an Antichrist, the Antichrist as Christ, God as Satan, and Satan as God, and do so even though they were warned of the possible occurrence of such a mistake.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • GOTCHA says:

    You see, the absolute scum of this Earth, made a deal with Satan. By placing all burdens upon the innocent, the lying deceitful low down scum, could have a Paradise of their own for free, since it becomes the innocent, the so called " Scapegoats ", that pay the bill.
    Fortunately this was prevented, and now the cold blooded acts of these despicable disgusting low lifes, will come full circle and these despicable low lifes will become their own victims of their own approval of the beyond screaming hell torment.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • GOTCHA says:

    The website http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm has now been identified as the website of JESUS CHRIST.
    To jump to the nitty gritty, go to http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm and click on the GREEK Gematria chart.
    This will take you directly to the bank of proof.
    For you have rejected the truth, there is no more than what you have already seen.
    For those who respect the truth, there is forever more.

  • Mark C. Chu-Carroll says:

    You know, if you're really jesus christ, the messiah, and the deity incarnate, don't you have better things to do with your time than play gematria games on a two-bit internet website?

  • GOTHCHA says:

    All forms of presentations of truths, were rejected somewhere between 2 seconds and five minutes. Years past. All of those whom were exposed to the truth, rejected the truth. The Bible Codes were a last stitch effort, and they too failed. Thus since the truth was 100% rejected, there was only one other option left.
    The only way left to draw attention toward the truth, is not a pretty one at all. But when you have no choice left, you have no choice left.

  • Stephen Wells says:

    Um, it looks rather as if GOTHCHA is threatening some sort of violent outburst. Consider therapy instead, please.

  • zpmorgan says:

    Because of its name, numerology may be conflated with number theory. I suggest coining a new term, cryptopornography, to replace numerology.

  • GOTCHA says:

    I think what GOTHCHA is referring to, simply relates to the outcome that is determined via the action of breaking the Ten Commandments. Thus what is now being said in turn, is that God needs therapy due to having threatened mankind if they do not follow his logical and wise rules.

  • Ed J says:

    Hi
    Numbers are a big part of the bible and can be used to prove many things including the very proof of GOD’s existence. I have attempted to bring this very proof to the public in my book titled “HolyCityBibleCode” . My brother has helped me with my web site and my new Yahoo e-mail address as the Internet and computers are relatively new to me. My free e-book is posted on my web site called http://www.holycitybiblecode.com. I would be interested in starting a dialog with you.
    Thanks
    Ed J

  • Continue a dialog with the people my friend, not with me.
    Spread the truth !
    Evil wishes to destroy the truth, so let us stop this my brother.
    The evil wishes us to converse rather than act.
    I am with you and you are with me. Together we move. We are separate, yet we are one. Two, beats the power of one. Thus we are are brothers.
    Do what your heart tells you to do, as do I.

  • GOTCHA says:

    I thought such words would bring things to halt.
    Meanwhile, more audio files have been added to the site.
    Things are moving up.

  • Brent says:

    I see the pro-"code" crackpots are still spamming these comments! LOL!

  • GOTCHA says:

    That's because you are delusional. What you are seeing isn't truly there.

  • GOTCHA says:

    Web site has been updated. The delay was due to the fact that last stitch efforts to connect people to the truth was continuously failing, all due to many people insisting that less than truth (a belief), is more truthful than truth itself, thus we finally had to let go of such people.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • Dave Thomas says:

    I adapted my Bible Code application to do Proudler-style searches. Here's what I found code-wise using War and Peace as the search text (not the Bible, natch).
    How to read the results:
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [ACCEPTED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [CODED]
    Searching in War and Peace, and restricting skip intervals to those lying between 342 and 654 (which happen to be the Gematriacal values of 'Accepted' and 'Proudler'), I found 186 matches of the word 'IDIOT'; the number 186 is also the Gematrical value of 'CODED'.
    I have generated thousands of these, most quite insulting to Mr. Proudler.
    I am working with the Canadian government to see if anything can be done about Proudler's false advertising on his site (he claims "I, K. SEAN PROUDLER , will reward the person who can prove that the following list of Bible decodings are simply coincidental, with the reward of, $100,000 cdn.")
    I claim Kevin Proudler owes me 100,000$ cdn.
    A very limited set of results follow. Thousands are available, if you need to see how pathetically stupid Proudler can be made to look using codes.
    Dave Thomas
    27 January 2010
    Scanning text for keyword PROUDLER
    Kwd#363/502 = PROUDLER, m_code6val=654
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [ACCEPTED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [CODED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [ACCEPTED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [DAFT]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [ACHIEVED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [CODED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [ACHIEVED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [DAFT]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [APPEAR] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [CODED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [APPEAR] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [DAFT]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [APPLIED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [BIRTH] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [CODED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [BIRTH] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [DAFT]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [BRAINS] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [CLAIMS] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [CODED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [CLAIMS] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [DAFT]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 312 [CODING] to 654 [PROUDLER] =216 [CHILD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 312 [CODING] to 654 [PROUDLER] =216 [CHILD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 312 [CREATE] to 654 [PROUDLER] =216 [CHILD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 276 [DECEIT] to 654 [PROUDLER] =240 [AGREED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 276 [DECEIT] to 654 [PROUDLER] =240 [DAVID]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 276 [DECEIT] to 654 [PROUDLER] =240 [DECODED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 276 [DECEIT] to 654 [PROUDLER] =240 [DUMB]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [DEITY] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [DETECTED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [CHO]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [DETECTED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [GOD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 312 [DEVIL] to 654 [PROUDLER] =216 [CHILD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [ELEVEN] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [FIGURE] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [CHO]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [FIGURE] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [GOD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [FINDING] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [IDIOT] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [CODED]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 342 [IDIOT] to 654 [PROUDLER] =186 [DAFT]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 312 [LEADING] to 654 [PROUDLER] =216 [CHILD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [MANKIND] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [CHO]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [MANKIND] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [GOD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [MEANING] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [PLANNED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [CHO]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [PLANNED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [GOD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [PLAYED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [PROCEED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [CHO]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 396 [PROCEED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =156 [GOD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 654 [PROUDLER] to 972 [INTRODUCTION] =180 [BIBLE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 654 [PROUDLER] to 972 [INTRODUCTION] =180 [BIBLE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 654 [PROUDLER] to 972 [INTRODUCTION] =180 [FACT]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [REVEAL] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [SEARCHED] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 312 [SIX] to 654 [PROUDLER] =216 [CHILD]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 378 [WACKY] to 654 [PROUDLER] =162 [CODE]
    #matches(IDIOT) with skips from 911 to 2001 =654 [PROUDLER]
    # Lines containing PROUDLER = 47

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Did you find in "War and peace" some ELS extension? I doubt it...

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Can you give us some tecnical details about that extension:"War and peace" in hebrew or english,skip,e.t.c.to check it?

  • Vilnagaon says:

    You can find and check all the details of an extension found in the Torah here:http://www.torah-code.org/papers/levitt.pdf.I want to know all the technical details of your extension and i can,t find them in your paper...

  • Dave Thomas says:

    I checked out the Levitt paper. This "extensions" technique is apparently just another highly subjective, 'tweakable' method for rejecting the "null" hypothesis (no codes in the Torah).

    2.2. Component Analysis: detailed steps
    CA compares each separate component of an ELS
    phrase, Si, to many candidate competitors, as follows:
    1. Divide Si's w non-anchor words into k components. A
    component can consist of from one to n words (typically,
    3 or less). Component boundaries are defined to
    coincide with the natural pauses of a phrase.
    2. Compare each of Si's k components to an appropriate
    list of candidate competitors (where the component itself
    is mixed in at an unmarked location, as are a sufficient
    set of control cases). For one-word components,
    the candidate list is derived from the 1640 major Hebrew
    roots listed in [7] (we choose an appropriate part
    of speech, and form the candidate from the root accordingly,
    so that the candidate fits the same context as
    the original component). For n-word components (n C
    2), the list of candidates is a set of N n-word phrases,
    randomly extracted from a comparison population (defined
    below in 2.2.1).
    3. Calculate a component relevance ratio for each of the
    k components of Si, which is simply the fraction of all
    candidates that are considered to be competitors of the
    component. A candidate is counted as a competitor of
    the component if it receives a relevance score that is
    higher than that of the component (see section2.2.3 for
    details). A candidate is counted as "0.5 competitors"
    if its relevance score is equal to that of the component.
    4. Combine all k component relevance ratios from (3)
    into an initial p-value, using the Fisher statistic [1].
    This statistic gives the probability that the combination
    of the individual results could be as low as we observe.
    5. Adjust by factoring in the skip of Si, as follows. Typically, many ELSs exist for a given anchor in the
    Torah, but we favor those occurrences with lower
    skips. Given that Si was formed using the jth minimal
    occurrence of the anchor in the Torah, it requires
    a weighted Bonferroni adjustment detailed in the appendix,
    which is a function of j.
    6. Adjust by factoring in the "difficulty of formation"
    (DF) of Si. This is calculated by determining how
    often a randomly placed anchor can be extended to
    an ELS phrase of equal or longer length than Si, with
    equal or greater average word length (with no requirement
    for relevance or even grammatical correctness -
    the extended string must simply consist of contiguous
    words found in the lexicon, described in 2.2.2 below).
    The DF value is the number of such successful extensions
    of a random anchor, divided by the number of
    attempts. It is therefore independent of the relevance
    measures and is multiplied by the result from (5), to
    yield the final p-value for Si.

    Oh yeah, I am SO rushing out to perform this analysis on War and Peace.
    Ultramaroon.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    I am only asking you for the basic details of your impresive ELS extension:anchor term,skip,"War and peace" version,e.t.c. because in your paper i CAN,T find them.I provided you,with the Levitt paper,all the technical details of an ELS extension found in the Torah and the analysis of it based on a methodology that you can object, may be you can suggest another one better.

  • Dave Thomas says:

    I did the Dallas/Guilty Lee Oswald/Shot Kennedy/Both Died/ matrix in war and Peace years ago, on a different (long-dead) computer, different platform, etc. Poking around files I still have, I can't locate those that would indicate step size, etc.
    Ah well. Here's another detailed matrix/extension I found in the sequel to Drosnin's first book on Bible Codes:

    "THE BIBLE CODE IS A SILLY, DUMB, FAKE, FALSE, EVIL, NASTY, DISMAL FRAUD AND SNAKE-OIL HOAX."

    Source
    The entire matrix is provided as a graphic on that page. Enjoy!

  • Further codes have been revealed.
    These codes show the connection between the Torah and the KJV New Testament.
    A Video is provided which discusses the discovery of the
    TORH TORH - YHWH - HROT HROT code patterns.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
    Using text find, the words " TORAH VIDEO " will take you directly to the Video.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    I am not discussing here about clusters of related words all that i want to know is if you can obtain long phrases just as that about Bin Laden found in the Torah in another text and if so i would like to know some technical details to check it out.I think that you can find clusters wherever you want,it will be very complicated to show why there aren,t so good as the Torah ones; but phrases like that about Bin Laden it would be very simple to compare.

  • The " TRUE BIBLE CODES " found at http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm are NOT based upon clusters.
    The cluster method is vague and unreliable. Satan forces the weak minded to focus upon the cluster method such that Bible Codes in general can be shot down via a statistical analysis of only this cluster method. The weak minded then assume that this one Bible Code language speaks for all others.
    In other words, such people are convinced that to see an entirety ( All Bible Code Formats, for instance. ), one must only examine a portion of the entirety.
    Thus in their minds, the scale of the portion of an entirety is larger than the scale of the actual entirety, hence they believe that one is able to see the entirety by examining a mere portion of the entirety, since the portion wraps around the entirety and thus encompasses the entire entirety itself. This is entirely ridiculous !
    In short, they judge a book by its cover.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Mr.Proudler,my question is,repeat again,did you find some ELS extension-phrase-in the KJV?if so then,please give me the tecnical details:skip,anchor term,e.t.c.I am not interested in another techniques,only in ELS extensions that form phrases.

  • Stephen Wells says:

    Sean: people who understand that language is rich in structure, and hence the discovery of coincidences are inevitable, are rightly unimpressed by Bible Code claims, whether cluster-based or otherwise.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Yes Mr.Wells the hebrew language is rich in structure but imagine Rockefeller,Bill Gates,Rothschild family united,thats the richness of the Torah and compare it with a poor from Ethiopia.If not why it,s so difficult to form a phrase in other texts?.I am requesting here a phrase to those who claim that you can find it easily from another texts and they don,t show me nothing nor even a riddiculous one,for example:"the pink birds drink beer".

  • Yes, Mr. Wells, however, make note of this.... If everyone was moving toward the actual truths of reality, any differences of opinions that we may have, will over time grow less and less as we each approach the actual truth.
    If we have chosen not to move toward the truth instead, then the opposite occurs, division between mankind continues to grow greater and greater in scale. Rich become richer while the poor become poorer, and as generations pass, more and more marriages begin fall apart, counties differences of opinions also enlarge thus creating wars, religions are at war with other religions, etc..
    All these forms of division can only occur if mankind had chosen to continue to place the value of their beliefs above and beyond all else, including of course placing their beliefs above truth itself.
    In their minds, "BELIEF COME FIRST", thus the bigger truth in banned, thus if True Bible Codes are presented, they will be instantly rejected.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm#TORAH

  • Now since only less than truth captures the attention of the many, deliberate spelling errors, or missing letters will most likely gather their attention than the topic at hand. Ex.
    "In their minds, "BELIEF COME(S) FIRST", thus the bigger truth in(is) banned, thus if True Bible Codes are presented, they will be instantly rejected."
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm#TORAH

  • Anonymous says:

    Now since deliberate word errors will more likely gather their attention than the topic at hand. Ex.
    "Now since only less than truth captures the attention of the many, deliberate spelling errors, or missing letters will most(more) likely gather their attention than the topic at hand. Ex."
    In other words, the situation is bloody hopeless.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm#TORAH

  • Dave Thomas says:

    Vilnagaon - re the long passage discussed in Levitt,
    http://www.torah-code.org/papers/levitt.pdf
    these 'long codes' are only possible because of the unusual brevity and flexibility of the Hebrew language.
    Using this translation site, I was able to find that "ונקמה למשיח" translates to "And retaliation to Messiah", which is somewhat reflected in Levitt's translation, "and revenge [belongs] to the Messiah."

    (I have no idea of these Hebrew letters will render OK once posted. But just type in the letters from the Levitt article into reverso. Translate some random phrases first to develop a collection of Hebrew characters for copy/paste).

    But, that's only AFTER a human decides where to break the words. Without the break - reading the phrase as it actually exists, as a Bible code - it reads "ונקמהלמשיח" which translates to "Onkmhlmshih".
    Even worse, "חרמח אכנך", which Levitt says translates to "I will dub you 'Destruction'", translates to this, even with the given space: "Hrmh indeed you".
    And without the very subjective added space, it becomes "Hrmhacnh".
    To which I can only add "Humph!"
    At any rate, these "long codes" are hardly impressive, and even these suffer from the "subjectivity problem" plaguing Bible Codes. It5's more obvious how twisted these phrases can be when you use English, which makes the mistakes easier for all to see.
    Kevin Proudler, did you notice the dozens of codes I found using your ridiculous rules? Where's my $100,000 Canadian??

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Mr Thomas here are the results of the "twisting" of the extensions found in the control texts-from the paper of Levitt-:"Just as we see with the Hebrew, a casual examination of
    the randomly constructed candidate competitors is instructive
    – it demonstrates how infrequently we observe truly
    competitive entries. The following entries are typical of the
    great majority, in their questionable degrees of intelligibility,
    and/or obvious non-relevance to the bin Laden anchor
    (they are candidate competitors for the component “I will
    dub you destruction”):
    • You disabled their pollen
    • He fed from nutcrackers
    • We will bribe a spider".You can also check this peer reviewed paper and also request from Mr Levitt as i did the result of the "twiting" from non Torah texts.http://www.torah-code.org/papers/belgpdf.pdf
    You are suggesting us then that Mr Levitt twisted better the Torah extensions that the control texts ones.If you were able to show us a long phrase from "War and peace",for example,you surely probe that is very easy to twist and found something interesting,if not its clear that those long strings are really messages.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Sorry for my bad english,it´s not even my third language,in my previous comment i wanted to say,you will surely prove-not probe-that is very easy to twist.The hebrew language is more flexible than english,it´s a fact,but if you show us a meaningful phrase in english from "War and peace" or "Moby dick" we can compare,no matter if it is a short one or riddiculous,

  • Dave Thomas says:

    Vilnagaon - you are asking me to compare Apples and Oranges. The flexibility of English is vastly inferior to the flexibility of Hebrew.
    It's like you're asking me to evaluate how Microsoft Word runs in Windows 7, by examining how Open Office Writer performs on MAC OS X.
    Apples and Oranges!
    At least in English, the lack flexibility is much more obvious to the casual reader.
    Dave Thomas

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Mr.Thomas,you are the first one to compare apples and oranges and all the people can check it in your paper.All the clustering examples that you show in it come from ENGLISH TEXTS!!:"War and peace";"King James Version".The Torah,the codes,is written in HEBREW!!Apples and oranges then...What i am asking you is if you can show us any extension from texts in english,no matter if it is very short taking account of the less flexibility of the hebrew language.It´s a complete different aspect or technique of the Torah codes phenomenom.But if you want,if you speak hebrew,then you can take an hebrew version of "War and peace",for example, and show us your e.l.s extension,you are free to choose the word for the extension.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Sorry,i wanted to say before,the less flexibility of the english language,obviously.

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Sorry,i wanted to say before,the less flexibility of the english language,obviously.

  • " The flexibility of English is vastly inferior to the flexibility of Hebrew. "
    And if you also eliminate clusters in your code system, via focusing upon specific numerical values of words, clarity begins to emerge.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • Brent says:

    Proudler why are you still here?! As for debating Hebrew and English, your "gematria" is just your own fake creation!

  • Why are YOU still here?
    Meanwhile, further codes have been revealed showing the connection between the Torah TORH TORH - YHWH - HROT HROT code patterns, and codes found within the KJV New Testament.
    http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm

  • UnaBubba says:

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

  • Vilnagaon says:

    Well...it´s seems that it´s not so easy to find something relevant in another texts Mr Thomas...Are you able to reconsider your opinion and recognice that the phrase about Bin Laden,for example... is really a message? Or we have to wait here for a complete refutation,or at least something that make us think that is very easy to find relevant phrases in another texts, may be a century?

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